An old version of this article was posted to various Usenet newsgroups during the latter months of 1995, and created quite a stir!

Note: (January 2012): I’ve done a quick update where my thinking/studying has changed in the last 15 years, following conversations with hundreds of LGBTI friends. Some of you might like to suggest more amendments. I was recently asked by a Facebook friend ‘Rowland, have you changed your mind on some of this?’ My response: ‘I hope so!’ (J M Keynes: ‘When the “facts” change I change my mind. And you sir?’).

…..

HOMOSEXUALITY: An Interview with Jesus…

This post addresses one of the two or three most-argued-issues between Christians and non-Christians on the Internet, and between Christians themselves…

This is first-draft, too brief, probably simplistic and somewhat tentative. Those of you to my ideological right and left will want to modify some of this. I invite your critical comments. Apart from hermeneutic/interpretive questions this imaginary interview might shock some Christians. In my defense I would assert that authentic Christian homiletics always asks ‘What would Jesus say/do?’ and he too had critics to his right and left!

Shalom!

Rowland Croucher (‘servus servorum dei’; AMDG)

~~~

Interviewer (I): Jesus, you had a reputation for hanging around with those on the edges/margins of society. But some of my homosexual friends and clients wonder why you said nothing about homosexuality, even though it was rife back then. We’re in a gay bar in San Francisco… why are you here?

# Jesus: Hi! I was invited by a friend. Remember when Matthew threw a party for his mafia-type mates? I was enjoying myself before the religious leaders gate-crashed it.

(I) What is a homosexual? Can we agree that he or she has an erotic attraction to and preference for members of the same sex? And can we use the word for both sexes (the Greek word ‘homos’ means ‘same’)? And that not all homosexuals are sexually active; nor are all people who engage in homosexual acts necessarily homosexual? And that we’re talking about 4-10% of all women and men? But what’s in your mind when you meet a homosexual?

# First, like all of us they’re made in the image of God and are loved by God. So they know I love them too. Many feel ostracized – actually, like the lepers of ancient Palestine, so, as you know, I share an affinity with those kinds of people. And where would the arts – music, drama, media – be without them?

(I) That word ‘love’…

# Oh yes, your English language is impoverished isn’t it? I mean ‘love-before-worth’ not ‘love-responding-to-worth’ or ‘love-me-to-meet-my-needs.’ The most tragic thing in life is not to know you’re unconditionally loved.

(I) Your Bible condemns homosexuality doesn’t it?

# No.

(I) No?

# No. Homosexuality as an orientation was unknown back then. Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27 condemn some same-sex _activity_. But lending money at interest, having sexual intercourse during a woman’s menstrual period etc. are also condemned; slavery and polygamy are condoned in the Bible. Do you want to be consistent?

(I) You didn’t mention 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10.

# Are you sure they’re about homosexual practice? Or do they talk about promiscuity and prostitution – sex for payment? And did you notice that the ‘greedy’ and ‘revilers’ are in the 1 Corinthians list? I would have thought Western churches have a fair share of those. And, back to Romans 1 – there’s no break at the end of the sentence at verse 28: Paul goes right on condemning all sorts of things.

(I) OK – but there’s also Sodom.

# And you’re a ‘master in the church’ and don’t know that the problem there (as in Judges 19-21) was gang-rape, not homosexuality? Every time Sodom is referred to in the OT and apocryphal books – and in the one Gospel reference, Luke 10:10-12 – it’s never in connection with homosexuality. In Ezekiel 16:49 for example, Sodom’s sins are pride, materialism, idleness or being uncaring.

(I) If someone’s testicles are crushed or their penis cut off or they’re illegitimate they can’t worship with others (Deuteronomy 23:1-6).

# Isaiah (56:3-8) predicted that eunuchs and others banned from the Temple would one day have a full place in God’s community. I came to fulfil all that. Those on the margins are moved to the centre, and vice-versa. So when convention, custom or law prevents the exercise of compassion or justice-love (John 8:1-11, Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 etc.) the latter takes precedence.

(I) When Bishop Spong or Troy Perry write about God affirming homosexual love – what do you think of that?

# I did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfil it. Using a modern analogy, law is to love what railway tracks are to the train: the law gives direction, but all the propulsive power is in the train.

Surveys in Australia (eg. ‘Project Male Call’, May 1994) found that 12% of homosexually active males reported having unprotected anal intercourse with casual male partners. 49% of homosexually active men engaged only in casual sex compared with 19% who reported having a regular relationship and engaging in casual sex. Almost three quarters of those interviewed (73%) reported having had multiple sexual partners in the previous six months. What do you think of all that?

# My conservative friends are disgusted; my liberal friends may respond ‘So what?’ I feel compassion for what are obviously many lonely, frustrated people. They are sad, and I am sad with them.

(I) Let’s talk about politics. Christians generally get more uptight about giving ‘family rights’ to ‘gay’ couples than to heterosexual de facto relationships. Why is that?

# Well, you’ve got to figure when ‘sins’ become ‘crimes’. Adultery? Same sex relationships? It’s odd that in your country, Australia, it has never been illegal to be a lesbian, but in Tasmania sex between consenting males in private was a criminal act until relatively recently. Then there’s the whole question of ‘adultism’ – the choices adults make (as also in divorce and abortion) in favour of themselves and often against children. But I think your modern Western culture has a deeper problem: its insistence on the nuclear family being the key way to raise children in a post-industrial world. Back in my Palestinian days we had extended families – far better. Every child ought to relate regularly to safe nurturing adults – of both sexes – other than their biological parents.

(I) Which raises the question of ‘sex’ generally. What’s your view?

# The Hebrew-Christian Scriptures are quite clear that human sexual activity involves three relational components – procreation, enjoyment, and covenant. The Catholic church has generally majored on the first and last of these 🙂

(I) Alright Lord, the churches: Evangelical groups (Festival of Light, the Southern Baptist Convention’s Christian Life Commission, Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition) oppose any ‘special rights’ for homosexuals. (Their posters say ‘God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve’). They cite statistics like ‘The median age of death for homosexual men from all causes is 42, and of lesbians is 45; fewer than 3% of homosexuals today are over the age of 55; and only 1% of homosexuals die of old age.’ (I wonder where they got those figures?). Mainline churches defend homosexuals’ civil rights but many have had –  until recently – mixed feelings about ordaining openly gay people to the priesthood (though all of them ordain gay pastors from time to time when the rule is ‘Don’t ask don’t tell’). A UK gay-rights group, Outrage, alleges that 10 C of E bishops are gay (The retired bishop of Glasgow and Galloway became the first high-ranking clergyman in the faith’s 480 years to admit publicly that he was gay). Some see as anachronistic at best and hypocritical at worst the fact that the Anglican Church does not (mostly) accept sexually active gays and lesbians as priests. Many clergy will bless same-sex unions; conservative pastors won’t. Andrew Greeley (Confessions of a Parish Priest, 1987, p.129) says homosexual Roman Catholic priests are a small minority and fall into four categories – some don’t have a strong sexual orientation in either direction; those whose homosexuality is clear but hidden; some go to gay venues (did you see the movie ‘Priest’ Lord?); and pederasts – who prey on boys or young men. [Note in 2012: Greeley’s ‘small minority’ is now way out-of-date. Some estimates – 40-50%].

# Shows there are people struggling with their sexual orientation at all levels of the church. So let’s not be too judgmental: I often said that when I was here 2000 years ago. And remember my friend Peter’s word about judgment beginning in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17)? Some conservatives can be compassionate (eg. Alex Davidson’s The Returns of Love). Some liberals may be too permissive…

(I) What ’causes’ homosexuality? Elizabeth Moberly (Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic) says most homosexuals during childhood got detached emotionally from members of the same sex (often the same sex parent). So they may have pre-adult emotional needs which are confused with adult physiological desires – and so intimacy is related to genital sex. Most ‘experts’ would now say a gay/lesbian orientation is something we’re born with…  Many -maybe even most - come from apparently loving and stable home backgrounds. Hormonal studies (eg. disorder 5-alpha-reductase deficiency where males are born with female genitalia; or congenital adrenal hyperplasia where females are born with male genitalia); genetic studies (eg. Bailey and Pillard’s finding that a male homosexual identical twin has a 52% chance of having a brother who is also gay; or Hamer et. al’s studies of gene markers); and neuroanatomic studies such as LeVay’s – all seem to indicate a recent bias towards ‘nature’ rather than ‘nurture’ as causal, eh? [Later studies…???]

# Well, scientists are simply discovering, incrementally, various aspects of God’s truth. But these studies have a long way to go yet?

(I) Yes… Time Magazine (back in June 12, 1995, pp. 50-51) in an article headed ‘Search for a Gay Gene’ says: ‘No one has proved that a particular gene promotes gayness.’ (I’m out of my depth when it’s scientific, Lord, but someone out there will bring me up to date on all this). But let’s move on to sociology. Kinsey said hetero-/homo- orientations exist on a continuum… In some cultures homosexual behaviors are common before and sometimes after heterosexual marriage… Then there’s institutional same-sex activity  – navies, prisons, and so on.

# And have you wondered why before the 20th century the focus was on behavior – now it’s more on identity?

(I) OK. Are we saying that it’s reductionistic to think of homosexuality as either biologically ‘hardwired’ or psychologically determined?

# Compassion focuses on needs not causes. Most did not choose to be gay. Some are struggling with guilt and self-esteem problems. Again, they knew I accepted and loved them, but they feel my followers don’t. Why is that?

(I) Some homosexuals abhor the question I’m about to ask (I saw a banner at a gay church which said ‘He died to take away your sins. Not your sexuality.’) Anyway: what if a homosexual _wants_ to change?

# The principles are clear: my followers are to do in their world what I did when I was physically with them (John 20:21).  I got more angry with ‘sins of the spirit’ than certain sexual behaviors…

(I) So whatever happens, gay people need an accepting community over a long period of time, particularly if they’ve struggled with their sexuality: they ‘can never live as if they never were’ homosexuals.

Can true homosexuals become heterosexuals? The answer (except from a few very conservative commentators) is almost certainly ‘no’. Tony Campolo writes somewhere, ‘In the likelihood that most (homosexuals) will still have their basic sexual orientations regardless of their efforts to change, we must do more than simply bid them be celibate. We must find ways for them to have fulfilling, loving experiences so that they might have their humanity affirmed and their incorporation into the Body of Christ assured.’

# I’ll go along with that. Some of my fundamentalist followers issue edicts: ‘Repent, change, or be celibate. Then you’re acceptable here.’ (Have you noticed that was the way of the pharisee? My approach was the opposite – acceptance preceded repentance). Some of my pentecostal followers expect miracles to save them from the trouble of ‘hanging in there’, week in week out.

(I) What would you say to such groups as The Festival of Light?

# I’d insist (on this issue) they set up a compassionate pastoral ministry to HIV/AIDS sufferers, and not be allowed to make any comments about the subject until their spokespersons had spent 500 hours in that ministry.

(I) Until 1974 the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality as a mental disorder. Why does this issue create such intolerance – from all sides?

# Well, think of the Gospels’ stories about Samaritans, for example. Racially, religiously – and sexually, too – humans have great difficulties tolerating those not-like-one’s-self (xenophobia, heterophobia, homophobia). Until you’re truly ‘redeemed’ you’ll have your own ‘antipathy’ people – who represent all that frightens or repulses you. I like the sentiments in a Psalm (139:14) I sing regularly: ‘I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well.’ And also the words of my disciple John: ‘Perfect love casts out fear’ (1 John 4:18).

–> More, much more, here: http://jmm.org.au/articles/28630.htm

Rowland Croucher

Modified January 30, 2012