An intriguing discussion (which brought back memories from my childhood Brethren Assembly in Sydney):

First, a member of our fortnightly study group asked me about this:

http://apps.facebook.com/theguardian/environment/2012/sep/14/arctic-sea-ice-smallest-extent

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Then followed these:

WAKE UP !! The Guardian is OWNED by the Elite and is nothing more than a propaganda machine to spread their lies and misinformation…There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support this claim….climate change is an invention of the Elite to justify the implementation of global carbon taxes that will all come out of our pockets and into theirs. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH….”if you believe the media you DESERVE to be lied to” Billy Connolly

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Daniel Batt: If someone believes climate change is a vast conspiracy, it’s like arguing with a young earth creationist or a 9/11 truther . . . or someone who believes Obama is a secret Muslim.

Anything to disprove their theory is just evidence of how deep the conspiracy goes.

As for The Guardian, it was rated the most transparent newspaper in the English language a while back. It is so well regarded, in fact, that it’s taking readers off American newspapers, and it one of the most well regarded news sites on the planet.

It’s always been more educated class than “elite”, which fits The Times of London as a better description.

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[1st poster]: Daniel For your information the chief mover and shaker on the Board of The Scott Trust which owns the Guardian is Anthony Salz who just happens to be the Vice Chairman of Rothchilds….the No 1 Elite Family. He takes his orders from Sir Evelyn De Rothchild who is the current leader of the elite, and the paper is his mouthpiece. In terms of being voted the most transparent….there is no such thing….they are all as transparent as a sewer pond. And just as a point of interest, if you still believe that 9/11 was masterminded by Osama Bin Laden then you obviously need to join the pixies down the bottom of your garden. Don’t argue another persons point of view…..spend 20 years researching and getting to the bottom of the truth, then and only then you might know what you are talking about. And if you ever plucked up enough courage to debate ANY of the three issues you touched on, I will back up everything that I say with irrefutable documented evidence.

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Daniel Batt Thanks for your frankness in blaming “the Jews” for being behind another secret conspiracy. I know your kind.

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[1st poster]: The ‘Zionists’ are the ones behind it all NOT the Jews……and not all ‘Zionists’ are Jews…..and none of the conspiracies are secret……and just what do you know about me? So here’s a little teaser for you.http://www.henrymakow.com/silverstein_business_partner_o.html Time for you to wake up and smell the coffee…..or are you and elitist too?

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Janet: Henry Makow is a hoot!!! I love his theories!!! http://www.henrymakow.com/a_glimpse_of_the_future_for_go.html

He is the dude who thinks the illuminati, the Zionists and the occultist are working together to take over the world and reproduce all humans like Brave New World? Isn’t he?

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[1st poster]: Glad you think it’s a hoot Janet……hope you enjoy WW3 starting soon…..wonder if you think 2 billion dead will be a hoot.

Janet: Not expecting any of the above, partly because he has zero credibility.

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[1st poster] Dream on

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Daniel: I worked in a Christian bookshop for over five years and I heard nearly every conspiracy under the sun, including requests for special orders from the nuttiest publishers (the Australian Veritas was one of them) on the planet.

Thankfully, we did have a policy on only ordering orthodox Christian books, and had to refer a lot of them to the Theosophical Society. I did once, in my early days, tell a Hitler fan to, perhaps, go to the British Israelite bookshop (they sold the Protocols of Zion and other racist muck), but decided I wouldn’t even pretend to enable that sort of thing in the future.

Anyway, my time there provided dozens of very funny sermon anecdotes, and a few sobering ones.

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[1st poster]: Yes I agree the world is full of nutters, I am a church Pastor who has spent 20 years reconciling conspiracy theories to end time prophecy, and when you do that you soon sort out the wood from the trees. I want my congregation to be as well informed as they can be…..and when you earnestly seek you find an uncanny connection. The world is being manipulated by the Illuminati who believe that they are in complete control, but God is the one in control.

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Janet: If you teach WW3 and 2 billion dead is inevitable because God is in control, apparently, I have trouble seeing how this helps the flock. There is a good reason why it is important to focus on what the Word actually says rather than chasing up these kinds of theories… they don’t help people to grow in grace and love in my opinion, and can be quite harmful.

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[1st poster]: The key I have found is to relate everything to God’s word and it has been by a process of research prayer and revelation that has led to the real motives behind many of these so called theories. But believe me it is not secret, the evidence is there if you search for it. If there is anything at all that troubles you, or things that you would like answers to please ask I am pretty sure that I can provide the answers for you. WW3 is graphically described in Revelation it is inevitable……but God has promised to take His chosen ones out of harms way before any of this happens, so there is no need to fear anything if you have made Jesus the Lord of your life. Once His bride is safe He will withdraw His Holy Spirit and the forces of evil will be released and He will pour out His wrath on a wicked world.

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Daniel Batt: In the 1980s, half of all Pentecostal pastors held to some sort of conspiracy theory (many of them had that nutty Kiwi Barry Smith turn up and do his end times schtick). That was before they realised that the Prosperity Gospel grew bigger churches.

Christians who believe in conspiracy theories are, thankfully, now a small minority. Given every past conspiracy theory Christians have embraced has proven to be wrong (and all those pre-tribulation theories have been totally false), it would be a brave (or more likely foolish) Christian to hitch their wagon to another unprovable thesis.

[To 1st poster]: I am guessing in your theological training you didn’t do a course on determining which conspiracy theories are true and which are false, so I wouldn’t foist any on your congregation. As Janet said, it doesn’t build character or grow the fruits of the Spirit.

Best keep it to yourself.

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[1st poster]: Are you ready for the rapture or is that another theory? Here is some food for thought but explains why the vast majority of ‘Christians’ will miss the rapture Enjoy this is my last word on the subject. .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4xlzIT9qbA&feature=autoplay&list=PLC500E20895BA8CC2&playnext=2

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Daniel Batt: The pre-tribulation rapture and dispensationalism has never been taken seriously by any serious theological college. Even Dallas Seminary, which was the only pseudo-academic outlet of this heretical theology has moved on from it profoundly.

No significant theologian in church history has ever taught a pre-tribulation rapture, and no significant modern theologican or NT scholar has done so either.

It’s not even a theory, in the common version of that word. It’s just another heresy or Christian fringe teaching, a bit like what the SDA’s or JW’s believed, only it occurs withing the church since we don’t have Nicene Councils, etc., anymore to declare such teachings unorthodox or heretical.

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[1st poster]: So Paul was wrong….Jesus was wrong and theologians are the only ones with any understanding? …..because they BOTH taught pre- tribulation rapture in the original Greek and Hebrew. You are both sadly mistaken victims of your own intelligence. Enjoy the tribulation. Blessings….

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Daniel Batt: The tribulation finished after Titus laid siege to Jerusalem. The really bizarre subtext of your last comment is that if Christians don’t agree with you, they’re not saved. Sorry,[1st poster] you have a cult, not a church.

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[1st poster]: If you believe that the tribulation finished after Titus you have a VERY rude awakening coming your way! We all get to heaven eventually…… and I look forward to continuing this debate with you in heaven, however, we will keep our heads on thanks, you will have to lose yours. God has a sense of humour… your intellect separates you from the truth…..so you will have to get there the hard way…..minus your head. When you wake up one day Oh so soon…..and realise that the true believers and the children of the world are missing….you may be excused for thinking if only I had listened to Pastor Den. Please no more comments, but I will expect an apology when we meet. Blessings Pastor….

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Daniel Batt: No apologies, in this life or the next, Denis. I was converted through end times teaching, but now know it is as false as the SDA’s 1844 second coming. I know Scofieldism in-side ot. And can suggest some very good theological work for you to read through some time.

I know how much I loved Jesus more and respected Scripture in an even deeper way when I saw the light (which is the standard Christian view, I have to tell you).

When you don’t believe what 99% of Christian scholars believe, it is time to consider that it might be you who is wrong.

PS Where did you come across the view that only pre-tribulation dispensationalists would be part of the rapture? Trust me . . . that is seriously kooky (or cult-like).

Orthodox Christianity says we are saved by grace through faith . . . no mention there of being saved by Hal Lindsay.

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Janet: From my point of view, arguing who is right and who is wrong about a very minor theological issue is secondary… I’d be very interested to know Denis whether you are actually accountable to your denomination, or a ministry supervisor, or someone in the body of Christ, as to what you are teaching in your church. The pulpit should not be the place for pet theories, but about teaching the faith. This really IS troubling me, and you did say If there is anything at all that troubles you, or things that you would like answers to please ask I am pretty sure that I can provide the answers for you”. Functioning as the body of Christ, and not as some closed club, really does matter.

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Rowland C Croucher: Best advice I was given by a wise elder in the Brethren (Dispensationalist) church I grew up in: ‘It’s best, Rowland, to stick to the material *between* Scofield’s notes 🙂

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Roy: Wow that opened a can of worms Rowland, you old stirrer.

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Daniel Batt: The whole problem with dispensationalism (which is the only way you can come to support a pre-tribulation rapture) is the assumption that everyone misinterpreted the Bible in a deep and profound way until John Nelson Darby came on the scene.

Now . . . of course, lots have disciplines have helped us see Scripture in a deeper way, from critical scholarship to the dead sea scrolls to Sanders studies in Palestinian Judaism and numerous scientific disciplines, from genetics to cosmology to paleontology to psychology and so on.

But nothing has come on the scene and pretended to chop the Bible up into seven dispensations and radically alter the whole view of scripture (apart from sects like the SDAs and JW’s) that the church has held since the second century.

Besides, as Josephus noted (and he wasn’t a Christian), pretty much everything in Matthew 24 (and other OT prophecies) was fulfilled when Ttitus laid siege and sacked Jerusalem. And, if the Jerusalem Christians had not remembered the words of Jesus ( “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains”, they wouldn’t have fled the city and would have all died. And our New Testament would be radically different today.

It is a really dreadful theology, that implied that there was no Holy Spirit in the Old Testament (which makes no sense), that people in the OT were saved by works while in the church age people are saved by grace, which reverts to a form of law in the Millennium (with the sacrifices starting again at the Temple).

It was all so totally nuts to believe in three or four second comings, that God would let Satan loose on this earth after Jesus ruling from Jerusalem for 1000 years, while born again Christians were in heaven, watching, I suppose.

Seriously, reverting to traditional, creedal Christianity was such a blessing: Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. It’s just that simple.

Phew!