An INTERVIEW with myself

Written by Rowland Croucher (updated February 2001)

In my training-to-be-a-counselor I had to read Watson and Tharp’s
excellent book ‘Self-Directed Behavior’ on behavior modification
techniques. One of these is self-talk. So here’s a rambling list of
questions I’m asking myself – and other people have asked me. Why do
they ask such inane questions? I wonder about that sometimes: but in
publicity for seminars etc. it’s apparently sometimes useful to add odd
bits and pieces of trivia about a speaker. Feel free to email me with
some others.

Rowland, how old are you?

Chronologically, 63 and a half.

What’s the best book you’ve ever read?

After the Bible, Richard Llewellyn’s How Green Was My Valley. The
descriptions of the Welsh miners’ singing is awesome. It’s one of the
few books I’ve read twice. I’d put Dominique LaPierre’s City of Joy up
there too (but not the movie).

O.K., then: best movie?

Time stood still during Deliverance. Recently saw Notting Hill with
Jan and our granddaughters. Apart from Hollywood’s necessary bawdiness
and pre-nuptual sex, it was a nice movie.

Favourite meal?

Pancake Parlour fish and salad, apple cider, pancake with
blueberries and ice-cream, finished off with a cappuccino, with my wife
and maybe another couple.

What’s your greatest extravagance?

Don’t think I have any: but as my 1970 Holden Torana is protesting
about taking me here and there I may have to get a better car which will
see me through until death do us part. Update (2001): Gave the Torana to
a friend, sold my F W Boreham collection and bought a Subaru (the idea
of having three years’ worry-free driving appeals to me. I get angry
about the whole idea of planned obsolescence).

What would you never give up?

Six sleep cycles (of about ninety minutes each) every 24 hours (=
nine hours).

What’s your star sign?

Don’t know, don’t want to know, don’t care. Doesn’t mean anything
(except putting your faith in the wrong place). If someone out there’s
got nothing better to do, my birthday is December 5.

Back to reading: read any good books lately?

Lots of them: but Frank McCourt’s Angela’s Ashes was special; and
Whatsisname’s The Color of Water, and Richard Foster’s new book Streams
of Living Water (which gives six answers to the question ‘How do people
get to know God?’)

If you were to recommend some contemporary Christian authors, who
would they be?

Richard Rohr, John Claypool, Barbara Brown Taylor, Walter Wink,
Walter Brueggemann. See under 50 or 100 Best Books on the JMM and my
personal websites.

Who do you most admire?

Jesus, followed by Dom Helder Camara and Maria Theresa.

Who do you find inspiring?

Refer to previous answer.

Who would you most like to meet?

Anyone who, after we’ve talked and prayed, has new insights into
their lives, and a new strength to battle on…

What do you want more of?

Silent solitude.

Favourite music?

Rossini or Verdi overtures when I’ve feeling buoyant; any one of a
number of concertos for violin and orchestra if I’m feeling pensive;
Chopin for background to light reading.

Ideal leisure activity?

Sitting by the log fire on a cold night, with soft music playing,
reading with my wife Jan, with the phone answering machine on in another
room.

What ten places should everyone visit before they die?

Israel, Ireland, Vancouver (on the odd days when the wind’s blown
the smog away during Spring), the Australian outback, a Fijian island,
London (and the Cotswolds and the Lake District and half a dozen English
cathedrals), Paris (but don’t expect civility if you’re
English-speaking), the Grand Canyon, the Victorian Man-from-Snowy-River
high country.

Where are you politically?

Depends on the issue. I’m more ‘wingless’ than right- or left-wing.

And theologically?

Ditto: I’m a radical, progressive, conservative charismatic catholic
(small ‘c’) evangelical. O.K. If you want to pin me down, look at my
Statement of Faith on the John Mark Ministries’ website, and you’ll
figure I’m close to the Lausanne Evangelical position on most things.

So you’re a fan of John Stott’s?

Mostly yes. Except for his Anglican view of baptism, and his
bachelor’s view of the Atonement (his book The Cross of Christ was
terrific apart from his weak exposition of the main point – the
atonement as a demonstration of God’s love).

Favourite song?

The Irish ballad Maggie. We used to sing it on football coaches were
we were in Teachers’ College. And Jan and I played it non-stop on a
recent trip to Ireland.

You’re male, so you must have a favourite memory of achieving
something great.

Yes, scoring our team’s (Bathurst Teachers’ College’s) only try
against the Sydney Teachers’ College rugby union team (which had a few
internationals in it) in 1958. Also breaking the combined Teachers’
College’s long-jump record in the same year (I forget how far – 23 feet
something I think). And recently: scoring a streak of 100 wins in
Freecell (the computer game that comes with Windows 95/98).

Most emotional moments?

The births of our four children: I was there for the last two (they
wouldn’t let husbands near the delivery room back in the sixties for the
first two).

Proudest achievement?

A wonderful marriage. Then four healthy kids, all four with
postgraduate studies/degrees, three of them happily married, two of them
have provided us with terrific grandchildren, youngest daughter Lindy
(25) still at home, which is great too.

What are you angry about?

Poverty and unemployment, most of which is remediable in most
places; and clericalism in the church.

If there were one word left to you in the English language what
would it be?

Empowerment. That is, the creation of contexts in which people can
be encouraged to grow – spiritually, intellectually, emotionally,
relationally, and vocationally – as they provide the necessities of love
and material goods for themselves and their loved ones, and enjoy
problem-solving.

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

Muesli (home-made by Jan) with honey, bananas and prunes, two
vitamin C, a garlic, a multivitamin and a fishoil tablet, cup of coffee,
cup of fruit-juice, with Jan (she has a smaller muesli portion, and more
prunes as she’s recently had a haemerroidectomy – those of you who’ve
been through that terrible experience will know what I’m talking about;
the rest can use your imaginations!), and the half-hour of Channel nine
news, comment by Alan Jones (interesting – and powerful – character),
summary of weekend’s sport. Then I helped Jan down the stairs with her
stuff, and when she’d gone said my prayers…

Best thing about being director of John Mark Ministries?

I walk five metres to work (John F. Kennedy also said that was the
best thing about being President), and I attend only one committee
meeting every six months. In my work: when people have ‘aha’ experiences
about their life-experiences and belief-systems. There’s no better
reward than when a couple, in tears, fall into each others’ arms with
relief, forgiveness, acceptance and joy, after a gruelling counseling
encounter.

You’re supposed to be a PhD student?

I’ve demitted. Don’t need it. But if there’s someone out there who
wants a strategic Masters’ degree figuring out why there are 10,000-plus
ex-pastors in Australia, let me know.

Best study program you’ve ever done?

A doctoral program in Practical Ministry at Fuller Seminary in
Pasadena, California, and a Masters’ in Education at the University of
Sydney. In those programs I was able to choose the topics for seminars/
course work.

Worst study program?

A couple of years floundering as an undergraduate at the University
of Sydney as an immature 17-18 year old, and four years at Theological
College (Morling Baptist College in Sydney). This college was in
something of a transition when I attended, and I chafed at driving
across the suburbs of Sydney to listen to lecturers reading from their
notes, and not welcoming questions. It’s changed there since,
fortunately.

Best church?

Blackburn Baptist (Victoria) in the 1970s, Narwee Baptist (Sydney)
in the 1960s. Terrific people, terrific pastoral teams, wonderful
responsiveness.

Worst church?

Better not name them. Let’s say there were a couple of churches (I’m
thinking of one in Canada and another in Australia) where I didn’t seem
to fit. That may not necessarily be altogether the church’s fault.

Why don’t you fit in some places?

Good question. I’m committed to encouraging leaders. So if someone –
or a congregation – prefers the status quo to growth and change then
both I and they will be quite frustrated with one another.

Do you go to church now?

Yes, every Sunday I’m preaching in different churches. But once a
month my wife Jan takes me to ‘her’ church, Mitcham Baptist, which is
good.

You don’t ‘belong’ to a church at the moment. If not, why?

Refer to my response two questions back.

What’s the key thing wrong with most churches then?

See my article ‘Ministry as Empowerment’ on the John Mark Ministries
site. Briefly: their clericalism and institutionalism. Back to John Mark
Ministries, what’s it about and what do you do? It’s about ministering
to pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and their spouses. I do five
things – talk to anyone who wants to listen (ie. preaching), listen to
anyone who wants to talk to me (ie. counseling), reading the books
pastors are too lazy, I mean busy, to read, writing stuff in books and
on the Net for pastors and leaders, and evangelism – particularly on the
‘Net.

How is John Mark Ministries supported?

Some people pray for us – a few every day. Financially, donations in
return for counseling and speaking roughly pay my salary (which is
$20,799 AUD a year – $1 within the 20% tax threshold!) except for
holidays; other unspecified donations just about cover overheads; sales
of F.W.Boreham books pay for computers and Internet ministries;
tax-deductible donations through Opportunity International cover Third
World leadership training ministries. Two financial challenges for us at
the moment: covering two months away in May/June 2001 beginning with
ministries in Malaysia, which we are offering without cost, and I should
take a study-sabbatical. We have no funds for either of these. Update: a
grant has been made to JMM to produce a website for pastors’ wives (this
one).

And the research?

I started a PhD, as I said, trying to figure out why there are as
many ex-pastors as serving pastors in the churches of Australia. But it
got too technical, the topic’s too big, and frankly I lost the head of
steam I had about it some years back. But it’s a very important
question, and someone will take it up one day. The Christian Research
Association is keen to pick it up again.

Do you enjoy writing?

Not as much as enjoy having written! Best chapters/articles I’ve
ever written are Ministry as Empowerment, Accepting Diversity and Living
with Ambiguity (you can find them on John Mark Ministries’ website: use
the keyword search).

What book’s about to be written?

A website – and maybe a book – for the group in our churches who
don’t really have a pastor – pastors’ spouses. I want to encourage them
to get together in small groups everywhere. At the end of this year
we’re taking a couple of months off, to finish the pastors’ wives
website. This is a strategic – and hurting – group of people. The
website will have material on how to survive as a pastor’s wife,
survivors’ stories, Bible studies and discussion questions, and
guidelines for sharing and praying together.

What counseling do you do?

It’s a small practice – 5 – 10 people a week, with someone on a
two-day retreat about once or twice a month. I mostly do one-off
diagnostic counseling with individuals or couples, then refer four out
of five to others, for reasons of finance or specialization.

If someone’s never been to counseling – what happens?

I regard counseling as a kind of friendship, where someone talks
about their issues and I offer, mainly, unconditional acceptance, and
maybe some wisdom. I walk with many clients after our first session or
two, or we go out to dinner (mostly Smorgy’s – a smorgasbord restaurant
in the next suburb). My areas of specialization are counseling pastors
and church leaders and their spouses with regard to issues of
‘transition’, also relationships and sexual counseling. Although people
make a donation to John Mark Ministries, counseling is really an
‘exchange of gifts’ rather than a commercial transaction, I like to
think. See the section on Retreats on the John Mark Ministries’ homepage
for more information.

And mentoring?

Yes, I regularly see a small group of professionals and church
leaders one-on-one – mostly once a month, although a few are once a
fortnight, and a couple once a week. Here we may discuss professional,
vocational, relational or apologetic issues, or the discussion can be of
a ‘spiritual direction’ kind, talking about how we relate to God. I have
a few professional people who have said to me recently: ‘There’s nothing
I think about that I wouldn’t now be prepared to talk about with you.’
Very humbling.

How do you pray?

These days, with the help of morning and evening prayer from the
latest Australian Anglican prayerbook, plus free-form petitionary
prayer, and a devotional book (at the moment, an anthology from The
Tablet about how well-known people pray, titled ‘How I Pray’. And all
through the day with the Jesus Prayer (‘Lord Jesus Christ, son of the
living God, have mercy on me, a sinner’).

Thank you for your time, Rowland.

You’re welcome, Rowland.

Questions for Rowland

(from a Christian Magazine editor, November 2000)

The work of John Mark Ministries

Its purpose?

To be a resource to pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and their
spouses…

Its audience?

The church across all denominations within Australia and beyond; in
terms of evangelism on the ‘Net – a huge disenchanted audience of
thoughtful people who’ve mainly given up on the church but want answers
to Big Questions…

Its success rate – (can it be measured in terms of success?)

Not easily. We try to help. In terms of counseling, many hopefully
go away feeling encouraged.

Stories of hope?

See the case studies on the website – particularly ‘One Woman’s
Story’ in the Retreats section.

Do you work alone, or with others?

Counseling sometimes happens with my wife Jan – also an ordained
Baptist pastor. I’m accountable to a very supportive Board and to a
supervisor…

Pastors in the Church

What percentage of pastors are burning out each year?

Difficult to put a percentage on it – but most would feel
emotionally and spiritually drained a lot of the time…

Has this gotten worse in the last 10 years?

Yes: more demands are being placed on pastors to satisfy the
expectations of a wider range of customers… oops, parishioners…

What can the Christian community do to assist?

See the article How to Encourage your Pastor on our website. When
that first went out in a World Vision GRID leadership letter we got a
record number of responses…

What else to pastors look to JMM for?

Help in times of pastoral and personal crisis; ideas for surviving
in a rigorously demanding ministry; occasionally theological and
spiritual insights for their personal journey…

Have the issues changed in the last 10 years?

Only in degree: we’re more ‘commercialized’ and communicators are
finding it more difficult to compete with television…

Desert Sabbatical

Why did you do it and for how long?

‘Cos it’s biblical: the sabbath principle is a very important part
of the way God’s made us. For R & R. To appreciate something of
Australia’s natural beauty and grandeur. Four months.

Did you learn profound things or was that not the point?

It wasn’t the main point. But yes I learned that the devil (pardon
my fundamentalism at this point) gets to you to try to destroy your
confidence when you’re away from the ‘daily grind.’ I talked to a
priest-turned-spiritual director at a Monastery where we stayed. His
best advice: ‘Give your guardian angel a nickname’. Now figure that out!

Would you do it again?

Yep, for longer…

Has it changed you?

Yes, life is in better perspective, and I’m enjoying slowing down…

If so, how?

Saying no to more things. Referring most counseling clients to
others…

About your website

Would you call your webstie a form of ministry?

Most definitely – evangelistic, teaching, encouraging…

If so, why?

The feedback we’re getting indicates that people who visit, as well
as those who read our offerings on our clergy/leaders’ mail-list, and on
newsgroups are helped in many ways…

How many hits a day do you receive?

Last count: 12,000 hits a day.

What are people most interested in?

Varies. The highest hit-rate is on articles about homosexuality,
masturbation etc. People have questions about these and feel the church
can’t get its act together on them. Most popular section: Humour (it now
is approaching 1,000 funny stories!).

Who have you encountered on the web since putting your
information up?

Friends all over the world. I’ve visited some of them; conducting a
wedding of two people who I met on the ‘Net (and who met each other
there) etc. etc.

Websites as a resource for people

Can a website pastor
people?

Not directly I guess. The pastoring happens in about 50 emails I get
each day…

Are conversations over the net as good as communicating face to
face? Do they supersede the old way of relating?

No they don’t: and it’s a delight to meet the people I encounter on
the ‘Net in the flesh. However for introverts like me it’s a very
relaxing way of communicating with lots of people without having to be
so emotionally involved as in face-to-face counseling.

What are the challenges and advantages of using technology as a
means of interface?

You have to watch the addiction factor of course. Many of my
counseling clients use the Web as a resource to feed their sexual
addictions…

What examples can you give of how you’ve used the net to
communicate with people about faith issues?

In my inbox today: a pastor who’s living with another woman, the
wife of a homosexual man who got no help from her church, a young person
who wants to be a Christian in a non-Christian home… the list is
endless…

Can Christians utlise the internet better or are they doing a
good job already?

Dr Negroponte (‘father of the Internet’) says the Internet is the
only piece of technology where the reality outstrips the dream… I
don’t know about that, but to have the biggest and best library in the
history of humankind is somewhat awesome! I’m encouraging people to
subscribe to one of the Texts for Today lists, and maybe visit our
Devotional section first thing each day…

Can you give examples?

Lots of ideas but here’s one: Try mastering a search engine like
Google: it’s terrific…

Is website developing perpetuating the whole issue of people
suffering information overload, or is it allievating this problem?

Depends if you are selective. When you go into a huge public library
it’s the same experience: you go to the corners where you get what you
need….

Your future plans for John Mark Ministries?

To find a
person to replace me in Victoria and a few other states…

Do you have a dream or a passion to use the net further?

Only in degree: I’d see the John Mark Ministries website as a portal
through which Australians can visit other places on the Net, and as a
resource (with perhaps 10,000 articles) on most of the issues they’re
likely to need…

What are the pressing issues of our time – for the church and for
the wider world?

For the church: to figure out how to live like Jesus in the world…
For the world: the hunger problem is the greatest macro-issue, followed
closely by the injustices perpetrated by the powerful against the poor.
(So everyone out there: click on the two hunger sites on our frontpage
every day, eh?) Then, as I’m an evangelist, I pray that more and more
people will come into an experience of authentic faith in the living
Lord!